control freaks: Christian Grey / Sheldon Cooper / etc.

[andy wood]

I just got home from watching the 50 Shades of Grey movie.

I understand that many here on Milovana despise that movie, and the book trilogy. The most support I have seen for the film here is "It is not that bad, and it has gotten people talking about BDSM, which is a good thing."

But I want to focus on something else. When I was watching the film, I had to stop myself from laughing aloud a few times... because every time Mr. Grey brought up the contract, I kept thinking of The Big Bang Theory, and the Roommate Agreement of Dr. Sheldon Cooper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFvOlQNI8vQ

Did anyone else think that, or was it just me?

[Ms. Julie]

I haven't read the books or seen the movie, but when I read that central focus was on getting her to sign a slave contract, my instant and overwhelming reaction was "does this story take place in like Sudan or United Arab Emirates or something, because I'm pretty sure slavery is illegal in the 'rest of the world'?"

Apparently the contract is outlined in great detail (from reading articles about it). Basically the contract is like "blah blah blah, slave, blah, master blah" and then ends with ".... as long as everything is consensual". Oh okay, so it's all 'pretend' then. Got it. So this guy is obsessed with getting this women to sign a pretend contract and apparently this idea is tremendously exciting for many readers. Alright then.

[Nezhul]

I'm reading the book now. It's not actually a slave contract there, it's much more like modelling contract that he has composed there. And yes, I'm not a lawyer, but I can imagine such contract actually having power if being composed knowingly. There's nothing about slavery, there's rules and obligations. Like for a fascion star - to keep her fit, to be single, etc, etc. A lot of the rules he has there are actually A LOT like those for fascion model's contract.
You should read one if you are interested, some of the rules they have there a wicked. Especially those for a girls that win Miss America and similar competitions.
Also words are "submissive" and "dominant", not "slave" and "master". I doubt "slave" would go in US, but "submissive" is much more vague.

[andy wood]

Ms. Julie,

I haven't read the books or seen the movie, but when I read that central focus was on getting her to sign a slave contract, my instant and overwhelming reaction was "does this story take place in like Sudan or United Arab Emirates or something, because I'm pretty sure slavery is illegal in the 'rest of the world'?"Apparently the contract is outlined in great detail (from reading articles about it). Basically the contract is like "blah blah blah, slave, blah, master blah" and then ends with ".... as long as everything is consensual". Oh okay, so it's all 'pretend' then. Got it. So this guy is obsessed with getting this women to sign a pretend contract and apparently this idea is tremendously exciting for many readers. Alright then.

I will play Devil's Advocate for a moment, and point out what I liked about the 50 Shades trilogy, and especially the first book. First, for you and those who have not read the book, Mr. Grey's behavior is in some cases close to abusive, and in other cases creepy-stalker-ish. But those points aside, one of the things I liked best in Book One was the negotiation process between Ana and Christian.

Among his other feelings, Christian wanted to protect and care for Ana. And to some extent, she liked that. (Plus, Christian was based upon the Edward Cullen vampire from Twilight... only the supernatural vampire powers of Edward were changed to the near-supernatural level of handsomeness and wealth possessed by Christian Grey.) So, part of the negotiation process between Ana and Christian was a reflection of changing expectations for vanilla relationships. Both men and women used to expect the husband to work outside the home, and the wife to be a stay-home homemaker and mom. So, what is typical now for a vanilla woman, is to want a man who will take care of her... but yet also respect her ability to take care of herself. Those social norms are still in flux.

In addition to the ambiguities of vanilla gender roles, 50 Shades also addressed the negotiation of limits, which should be familiar to those who practice BDSM. (As a personal example, I am currently sort-of the sub of Quiet Linda. I say "sort-of" because I am one of about 20 or so guys who are following a public challenge/game led by Quiet Linda. That sometimes feels more like participation in a team sport, than being individually owned by a domme. But compared to, say, "Della's Multimedia Game", there is a level of individual ownership with Quiet Linda. And I recently got some PM's from Quiet Linda which made me feel much closer to her.) Anyway, some of what I am doing for Quiet Linda is exactly what I enjoy (ex. - edging and orgasm control). But then, some of what I am doing for Quiet Linda is something that I do not especially enjoy (ex. - feminization). So, if we forget about whether or not Ana and Christian were writing down some set of rules, and just look at the delicate process of negotiation, the first 50 Shades book gets it sort-of right.

Finally, Christian had Ana sign two documents. The first was a legally-binding nondisclosure agreement, which was to prevent Christian's professional image from being harmed by one of his subs writing some "kiss and tell" (or is it "whip and tell"?) unauthorized biography of him. But then yes, the "Dom and sub contract" that Christian and Ana spent so much time discussing in the film, was really just a way of them both keeping track of what they both expected and agreed to. It was not meant to be legally enforceable.

I hope this post was not too lengthy. But there may be a few folks on Milovana who are curious about 50 Shades, have not read it, and would appreciate a summary.

[andy wood]

Nezhul,

I'm reading the book now. It's not actually a slave contract there, it's much more like modelling contract that he has composed there. And yes, I'm not a lawyer, but I can imagine such contract actually having power if being composed knowingly. There's nothing about slavery, there's rules and obligations. Like for a fascion star - to keep her fit, to be single, etc, etc. A lot of the rules he has there are actually A LOT like those for fascion model's contract.You should read one if you are interested, some of the rules they have there a wicked. Especially those for a girls that win Miss America and similar competitions.Also words are "submissive" and "dominant", not "slave" and "master". I doubt "slave" would go in US, but "submissive" is much more vague.

I remember being surprised by the controversy where Vanessa Williams was stripped of her Miss America crown, due to the nude pictures she had taken (which got published in Penthouse).

I had no idea that fashion models had to remain single, though.

[Ms. Julie]

"The Submissive accepts the Dominant as her master, with the understanding that she is now the property of the Dominant, to be dealt with as the Dominant pleases during the Term generally but specifically during the Allotted Times and any additional agreed allotted times."

There are provisions compelling the Submissive to submit unwillingly to medical treatment, and those requiring the Submissive to “submit to any sexual activity demanded by the Dominant…without hesitation or argument.”

Ya that looks just like a regular modeling contract - snort. [http://blog.legalsolutions.thomsonreute ... -enforced/]

If this 'contract' is just part of the game (as Andy says), I'd be fine with that i.e. it's just pure fantasy. But let's not pretend it's actually legally enforceable, which obviously it is not. If it's just fantasy, then sure, whatever. Why bother with the "consent" part at the end in a fantasy document though ... Oh well whatever.

Ugh, just engaging in this banal conversation over the subtleties of 'limitations of contract law', has made BDSM seem boring (to myself at least). I should have resisted.

[LeanneTG]

I haven't read the books or seen the movie, but when I read that central focus was on getting her to sign a slave contract, my instant and overwhelming reaction was "does this story take place in like Sudan or United Arab Emirates or something, because I'm pretty sure slavery is illegal in the 'rest of the world'?"

Yes and no. True slavery is illegal; but a consensual slavery does sort of exist in the BDSM communities. And does often involve contracts. They're not legally enforcable (at least in the Western world) but the idea of them lends a sort of psychological weight to it.

[Ms. Julie]

LeanneTG,

For sure, but it was my impression that this contract was implied as legally binding. Clearly others thought so to (thus the discussion on the blog I linked to above). If we conclude it's merely symbolic and of psychological importance only, then it becomes almost exactly like The Big Bang "Roommate Agreement" that Andy mentioned i.e. an informal agreement that, if broken, will at most result in ending the relationship and nothing more.

[andy wood]

LeanneTG,

a consensual slavery does sort of exist in the BDSM communities. And does often involve contracts. They're not legally enforcable (at least in the Western world) but the idea of them lends a sort of psychological weight to it.

Do you have any experience with slave contracts? I am curious how common they are in BDSM communities.

Years ago I attended meetings of a couple of BDSM communities in Texas. The leader of one of the local groups, Rusty, had a collared slave. At one point they had briefly broken up, and then when they had reunited, they did so under a new contact.

When I have been in a D/s relationship and I have not been submissive, I may have been more of a "serial Top" than a Dom. There are several girls with whom I have done several scenes over the course of a few months, but I have not usually had them follow long lists of rules in between scenes. When I have been submissive, though, one of the things that I like is tease-and-denial and orgasm control, and giving someone control over my orgasms for 10 or 15 minutes is trivial, compared to the feeling of being controlled that way over the course of 10 or 15 days.

I have the general impression that the greater degree of control the sub surrenders to the dom/me, the harder it is to make sure that both people will enjoy it. But I am curious to hear about the experiences that you, or anyone, have had with D/s contracts.

[Nezhul]

Ok, I've read the first book and I feel qualified to answer a bit better.
Fierst of all, from the very beginning it's quite clear in a book that the contract in question is not enforceable. It's just for show, for kink, for the feeling of it. Many people sign such things because it gives them a feel that the commitment is more potent and real.

Second, despite whatever people may think, it's not the book about sex, nor it about BDSM or slave/master relationship. It has a lot of graphic sex scenes, yes, but it can't be further from slavery lifestyle. In fact, it's one of the best piece of romance I've ever read. It's not about Grey trying to get her to sign his contract! It's about Grey and Ana trying to make their relationship work despite both knowing they can't provide each other with something the other needs. Grey doesn't want contract from Ana that much, he wants her to stay with him despite how he's fucked up in the head. It's the sroty about people, not sex, and definitely not BDSM.

[andy wood]

Nezhul,

despite whatever people may think, it's not the book about sex, nor it about BDSM or slave/master relationship. It has a lot of graphic sex scenes, yes, but it can't be further from slavery lifestyle. In fact, it's one of the best piece of romance I've ever read. It's not about Grey trying to get her to sign his contract! It's about Grey and Ana trying to make their relationship work despite both knowing they can't provide each other with something the other needs. Grey doesn't want contract from Ana that much, he wants her to stay with him despite how he's fucked up in the head. It's the sroty about people, not sex, and definitely not BDSM.

I think there are at least 3 separate questions about BDSM:

1) What is it, as an ideal?
2) What is it, in a typical case?
3) What is it, in the worst cases?

In the other 50 Shades forums thread ["Whips Banned At Fifty Shades Of Gray Premiere"] I liked this quote from Les: "BDSM is to domestic abuse as boxing is to bullying. The first is Safe Sane and Consensual. The second is unsafe, insane and non-consensual."

I have some experience with both "good BDSM" and "bad BDSM". My ex-wife was (and I guess still is) a domme. Among other things, she worked as a pro-domme. There were things I liked about her (she was smart, could be witty and charming, and in bed she was the wildest and most creative woman you can imagine). But eventually I had to stop scening with her, because she was heavily sadistic and I am not masochistic. We tried various things (24/7 D/s, vanilla between scenes but her topping me at times, kinky people in a vanilla relationship). Eventually, we were just not compatible. One issue was that her temper was a chronic problem. I live in NY, and when I filed for divorce in mid-2006, NY did not have "no fault" divorces. So, I divorced her on the grounds of Intolerable Cruelty, and a judge agreed with my petition. In my divorce papers, all of the abusive behavior I cited was completely separate from any of the scenes that she and I had done. I made no reference in the court documents to anything related to the BDSM lifestyle. (By the way, "consent" is not all-or-nothing. Some of the kinky things I did with her, I truly enjoyed. Other things, I did purely to please my domme.)

In any case, if I ever consider playing with another domme offline, one of my rules of thumb will be "the larger her collection of pain toys, the less I want to scene with her".

It is a mistake to confuse "a consensual, mutually happy BDSM relationship" with "an abusive relationship". But it is also a mistake to place BDSM on too high a pedestal. Abuse can happen in both vanilla and kinky relationships. And if anyone wants to claim otherwise, I would suggest reading about the "No true Scotsman" fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


So, is it true that 50 Shades is "not about BDSM"? I would not say that. The 50 Shades trilogy does portray BDSM as a dark and negative thing (as the only major flaw of an otherwise super-desirable man). Overall, the adventures of Ana and Christian in the 50 Shades trilogy are about as realistic as the supernatural adventures of Bella and Edward in the Twilight series.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, there is something else I wonder about. In the 50 Shades trilogy, one aspect of Christian that Ana has a hard time accepting is sadism. But another aspect is Christian's control-freak nature. Which is more often a problem in kinky relationships: incompatible tastes in scening? Or the degree to which the dom/me controls the life of the sub between scenes?

[Nezhul]

Well, yes, of course 50 shades has a great BDSM background. However it's not a book about it. It's not a book about slave-master relationship as a lot of people seem to think (including me before the very last chapters of the first book). It's a story about people making their relationship work despite interest incompatibility. It's a book about Ana helping Grey to step into the light and rid himself of darkness that he bears.
If anything can be said by now, Grey is sacrificing much more for Ana, than she does for him. He's chasing her, not the other way around. I'm at the half of second book, and the most kinky thing they've done is some light spanking.
Again, by saying "It's not about BDSM" I didn't mean "There's no BDSM in it", I meant "It's not the point, and not even the main string in their relationship".

Also, that's a book I really recommend to everyone. It's one of those rare books that grabbed me fast and doesn't let me go for a few days now (my english reading is not as fast as in my native language). I literally can remember only 2 or 3 books that did this to me. I'm reading it from dawn till dusk, even at my working place.